SHOCK OF THE NEW Sounds 12/4/86 cover picture (106 kb)
Interview by Chris Roberts



SHOCK OF THE NEW



Temptation, confusion,
disillusion. Experience,
true colours, and the
meaning of life, before and
after drinks. NEW ORDER
answer, CHRIS ROBERTS
questions, PETER
ANDERSON sees music
as art








   "You don't have to watch Dynasty to have an attitude" - Prince
   "I have no attitude without a cigarette" - Lou Reed
   "I wouldn't mind being a thief" - Bernard Albrecht 


   In a Newcastle hotel bar with an attractive chandelier the Grace
   Kelly of pop ventures a "Hullo" better late than never. 
     Hook volleys a "Hullo" back and Albrecht goes "Wheeeuuurrr!". 
   He tries again and manages "Aaaarrrhhh".
     A publicist with a brain to match his legs buys us Scotch.
     Grace is nicely confused. Two men carry six television sets out
   of the lift and stack them neatly on the stairs. A hunchback 
   lopes past. The two men reappear with three more television sets.
     We go to The Tube. Kelly's eye fixes on a door which all the 
   children can go in through.

   EPILOGUE
     "Let's go out and have some fun, wooh." - ('The Perfect Kiss')


   Gillian decorated the walls of her hotal room the night before.
   With vomit. She doesn't say much. Stephen wanders around a lot. 
     Quote: "Well, I wandered around and I wandered around." He looks
   very stern and Gregory Peckish on the cover of 'Low-Life' but in
   the flesh he's kind of... humble, almost.
     There's a close-knit group of Lancastrian individuals around the
   band. I recognise one of Life. They are all friendly without being
   crawly or phoney.
     New Order, knocking around 30, are not signed to a major record 
   company. New Order are one of your last strongholds.
     Besides, New Order are New Order.

   SEVEN THINGS I ADMIRE ABOUT NEW ORDER
   Strength, the ability to swirl on a pinhead, notoriety, 
   unpredictability, the way 'Thieves Like Us' sounds when you stare
   at two pillows and smoke on a June morning. Bernard's ears, the 
   ensuing thought that if Life and Death made unselfconscious love
   there would indeed be a vicious and valid and vulnerable master 
   race.

   THE COMPETENT PETER HOOK INTERVIEW
   I sit on an amplifier with Peter Hook, whom everyone today refers 
   to as "Hooky". "Hooky" is mature, soft-spoken, and does not smash 
   my face in. This is all very laid-back and sensible.
     Some people say you're a nasty piece of work.
     "It doesn't really bother me what I read. It's a pretty weird
   position to be in, writing about people, isn't it? When you just 
   meet them like this. I don't think it works. Basically, I think 
   most of it's down to entertaining, and if you can find an 
   interesting angle, that's the one you'll go for."
     Is that what you're doing with New Order? Entertaining?
     "Maybe not entertainment, maybe more creating something."
     Do you get satisfaction from this?
     "Sometimes - the satisfaction of writing and playing a great 
   song. And a great deal of frustration!"
     What's frustrating?
     "Well - it's a rotten business. I wouldn't even begin to go into
   it, with you, at the present time."
     Is this why New Order remain detached from the usual music biz 
   cliques?   
     "We don't like the in part of it. I prefer to judge people by 
   who they are and what they do. You don't know what anyone's like 
   till you meet them anyway. You shouldn't make snap decisions. 
   Which is basically what you're doing."
     As people, are you as the songs - 'Temptation', 'Confusion',
   'Shellshock' - would suggest? Very traumatic?
     "Yes, for some reason we do seem to attract a lot of trauma. I
   don't quite understand why. Maybe it's because we do everything to
   extremes. Like, The Hacienda is a pretty extreme thing for a group
   in our position to do.
     "And the way Factory works, all over the world, is very extreme.
   So we tend to do a lot of weird things. In a very awkward way, cos
   we want to do them our way.
     "The reason what we do is very exhausting and intense is that we
   tend to do it in blocks. Staying up all night, working really 
   hard, until people do fall by the wayside. It's like war. You've
   got more chance of being killed than in peacetime."
     Do you think your followers appreciate New Order for the right 
   reasons?
     "Some do - like attracts like mostly. So a lot of our serious
   fans might not come up and talk to us cos they're like us as 
   people. It's those people you impress most."
     Are you still an 'alternative'?  
     "Well, you need an alternative to some things these days, don't
   you? God. I think the actual business has gone really bad again, 
   to how it was before punk. People just do it for the money, not 
   because they believe in it or something. I think we're well due 
   for another Sex Pistols."
     And I thought you were "the rebels of pop"!
     "Well, I mean... we do cause a lot of people a lot of trouble.
   The thing is - they're forewarned because they think we're going 
   to be a bunch of awkward bastards anyway. They're ready for you. 
   So it doesn't matter. You can do what you want. Some people have a
   very strange attitude."
     People generally think New Order must be very deep.
     "I suppose we are in a way. We're as deep as you. Or anybody 
   else."
     Would you agree you consciously "set an example" in attitude?
     "Yes, but because it's underplayed it doesn't have the effect 
   it should have. It doesn't change anything; they just say - Oh
   yeah, New Order. And because we're very incestuous and insular - 
   maybe if it was to break out it'd have more effect.
     "But then it waters it down. We're a very close group of
   people... you can get very deep relationships with just certain
   people, and that's good cos I'm not a very sociable person 
   anyway."
     That cultivates the "mystique" bit...
     "Yes, but if you find something really good and special, you 
   want to keep it to yourself anyway, don't you? Why share it? F***
   'em!"
     Have you passed the stage of getting antagonistic? Are you anti-
   anything?
     "I'm anti-anything that annoys me. If you annoyed me I'd be 
   anti-you. It's just situations, isn't it? I just don't like 
   bullshit. People don't expect groups to think; they try to cushion
   you against the real world and I don't agree with that."  





   New Order will soon undertake a 23-date tour of the United States.
   "Interesting place, America. You can be as rebellious as you like 
   and just sink without trace. You just have to compromise, and
   it's a real bind. They just don't seem to be that artistic; 
   everything has to be easy."
     They worked with American producer John Robie on their latest
   blockbuster 'Shellshock'.
     "We were shocked by the amount of money we had to spend to make
   one record. That type of music ain't as dear to my heart as the
   acoustic stuff; I prefer a meshing together to machines. But
   it's a really good song; you can't dispute that." It's to feature 
   on the soundtrack to the film Pretty In Pink, a reputedly dodgy 
   follow-up to The Breakfast Club.
     "We never know what's going on with our sets, so we make loads 
   of cock-ups. But I hate the way some bands just play the same set 
   every night till it's preposterous. And I hate encores. The point
   escapes me. It's like - when you have an orgasm, you don't just go 
   straight back, do you? You savour it. You relax after, you don't
   just go - wooh, right, right... well I suppose some people do. But
   we'll leave the road crew out of this."
     Is there a reasoning behind your starting to play Joy Division
   favourites live again?
     "We've started doing them because... we used to do them on Ian's
   birth... Ian's deathday. Just like... melancholia, tribute, 
   whatever. 
     "Our manager's convinced that Morrissey wants to be Ian Curtis.
   That Morrissey wants to die cos then the shadow of Joy Division 
   won't be hanging over him. I'm not sure if I agree with his theory 
   entirely."
     Does it seem like a very long time ago? Since Ian?
     "It does. It seems a lot longer than it should do. Wild. Scares
   the shit out of you when you realise... ten years? Since we 
   started. It's gone like that."
     As expected?
     "Nothing goes the way you expect. Unfortunately. It's been
   interesting."
     Are you ambitious?
     "I'd like to be a racing driver. I need some more money."
     Peter Hook, why do you drink?
     "I drink to forget. I don't know what, I've forgotten. But if I
   stop drinking I'm sure it'll come back. So I'll carry on 
   drinking."
     Are you happy?
     "Well -um - yeah. If it was that simple. The hard work takes the 
   edge off it but it also keeps you going. If you get too complacent 
   it reflects in the music. Which is why a lot of bands are shit. I
   think when you're struggling you're putting out a certain 
   intensity that people latch onto."
     Are you underrated?
     "The people that matter understand. A lot of people even in this 
   business know that Factory, New Order, Joy Division, are very very 
   important. To everything. The influence."
     And such sad songs...
     "Desperate, as opposed to sad."
     Why don't you sell out?
     "Oh, I don't know whether it'd be worth it, to be honest.  
   Luckily at the moment we can carry on as we are."
     For how long?
     "Tomorrow. The day after. I don't think about it."
     You're not very weird or distant or aggressive after all...
     "Well... maybe we've mellowed. Then again, you're not really 
   seeing us in our true colours, are you?"
     Aren't I?





   Bernard Albrecht and I are looking for a quiet room. We're both
   completely useless at finding quiet rooms so we wander around and we 
   wander around, chuckling. "Barney" is fairly pissed and I'm... I 
   don't know what I am except enjoying the prospect that anything is 
   possible.
     We bump into Paula Yates in her underwear.
     "F***in' 'ell," says the enigmatic singer of New Order. "I 
   wouldn't mind f***ing that."
     We find the place.
     We go into the Disabled Persons' Toilet and lock the door.
   Barney collapses across the seat thing. "Hang on," he says. "You 
   'aven't got a chair." So we spend another ten minutes getting me a 
   chair.
     Someone says, "Where are you?" I take immense spiritual glee in 
   pausing one and a half seconds before uttering, "We're in the 
   Disabled Person's Toilet."
     "Really?"
     "Yeah! It's brilliant!"
     Barney picks up his throat spray.

   THE DEFINITIVE BERNARD ALBRECHT INTERVIEW
   I) We lock the door again.
     There seems to be some confusion under all the mythology as to
   what you're really like. From the lyrics you come across as being
   very very romantic.
     "I am..." comes a slow reedy tiny voice from one foot/1,000 
   miles away. "I am, yeah."
     That's something that isn't talked about very much.
     "Well... it's more the private side, isn't it? The lyrics are 
   very... I thought about this the other night actually. I 
   thought... er... you've got like this ball in your brain, right?
   And the secret of what we do is - you've got to get yourself into 
   the frame of mind so all this magic juice comes out of the 
   ball in your brain and allows you to create something that's good.
   That's the best way I can explain it, cos it's... I can't say 
   Right, I want to write a song about THIS, cos there's nothing I 
   want to write a song about. 
     "I never - ah - I'm questioning but I've never got any answers. 
   Well, you know, I've got some answers but - you're not in a
   group to tell people what they should be doing. Just to tell 
   people what I can see... y'know, if I can see beauty in something.
     "...or when something in my life is troubling me, and has done 
   for a long time, and there's nothing I can do about it. And some
   things that happened when I was a kid. Because... when you write a 
   song you can discuss something you can't normally. It's the only
   way to discuss it..."
     Are you very frank?
     "Yeah, yeah. But sometimes... I mean they're not all serious.
   For a few years we wrote about personal feelings and 
   relationships. Then I got a bit fed up with that and started 
   writing little stories, like 'Love Vigilantes' and 'Perfect 
   Kiss'... 
     "That's what I was thinking the other night! I'd forgot! I was
   thinking about the juice in the brain, but I was also thinking 
   about... Joy Division.
     "When Ian died, we had real difficulty writing all of a sudden.
   A) cos Ian died, the obvious reasons, and B) ...bastard! I forgot
   it! Ah - it was because when we looked back we couldn't remember
   how we'd written any of the Joy Divison songs. We didn't know
   how we did it. Not one song, not one Joy Division song. I remember
   goin' to rehearsals, pissin' about with tape recorders, but that's
   that. It is quite weird really."      
     Perhaps it was mystical or something...
     "No, not that. What I'm sayin' is... it was natural. It was
   like... eating. You don't remember chewing your food but you 
   remember what it tasted like."     	 
   II) In 'Shellshock', where you say "I've been good and I've been 
   bad but common sense I've never had", is that you saying that?
     "Yeah."
     So how come if you're a respected artist and a successful 
   musician you're so bloody miserable?
     "Er... no, it's not... it's like... if I ever write a book, 
   right, this'll probably be the wildest year of our entire career,
   and I can't tell you why. But it will be. there are some things 
   going on at the moment that you wouldn't believe. If we ever write
   the book it'll make a million, I tell you. So many things that...
   happen to us."
   III) Is love involved in this somewhere?
     "No. No, no, no."
     Money? 
     "Money? Yeah. But - I can't tell you further than that, 
   because... but one day it'll come out. It'll be wild."
     IV) Do you think you're a symbol of "an underground" to people?
     "I don't think there is an underground anymore."
     You do attract people who wish there was.
     "I think we're just a group who've got this juice in the brain."
     Are you a genius?
     "Oh... ha... I don't think we're geniuses as such, I think 
   we're... dead honest. Just dead honest. And that is a form of 
   genius. 'Cos it's difficult."
     You can't always be honest though, can you?
     "In our music, we can."
     I still think you're an old-fashioned romantic. Otherwise I
   wouldn't be here. (Not strictly true.)
     "Yes but... I think everyone is really, it's just a bit uncool 
   to say it. And very unfashionable.
     "Anyway I like picking up on things that've just gone out of
   fashion. I find it interesting. Like 'Blue Monday' - that sort of
   music had just gone out when we did it."
     But look - what gets me is - you have all these "uncool" 
   emotionally sensitive lyrics and yet your followers are supposedly
   so "cool" and hip. It's like - they wouldn't admit it but they 
   love a good love song... 
     "Yeah, well that's what makes life interesting, isn't it? 
   Everyone now hides behind a painted smile, don't they? That is one
   of the very few things I find interesting about people."
     Peter said he drinks to forget.
     "Yeah? F***in' hell!"
     V) Bernard Albrecht, why do you drink?
     "I drink... for... why do you smoke?"
     Ha! Erm... to calm myself down from the too many things I think
   about?
     "That's why I drink. It is. No really, it is, it is."
     Do you think too much then?
     "All the things you think about are worries you've created 
   yourself. Most of them are illusions. When I drink I don't have
   any problems. I don't give a f*** about anything.
     "I don't feel very normal unless I drink. But I only drink when
   I go out, I don't drink at home, that's disgusting. When I drink I
   drink to get drunk. That's what alcohol's for. It tastes f***in'
   rotten. An'... it's like a tranquiliser. Everyone has one, just to
   slow you down."
     Some people watch TV every night.
     "Yeah, well I need a tranquiliser after watching TV. I start
   getting really fidgety. I find it difficult to concentrate. I 
   think - it's all to do with evolution. Because life has got a lot 
   less physical, we've got a lot more surplus energy."
     VI) Do you have strong feelings about sex and violence?
     "No, not really, no."
     The tape runs out. It takes me long enough to turn it over.
   Ah the technique, doves, the technique.
     "Erm... all the violence in the world doesn't quite affect me 
   but it depresses me. Y'know - just watching the news. You get 
   pissed off with the world in general if you stay at home for a few 
   days cos there's not much you can do about it. It seems to've got
   gradually worse since the 50s.
     "And sex... sex is an attempt to touch something that's a bit 
   better than sex.
     "That's why people get into f***ing animals, and... y'know... 
   all perversions, cos they're trying to grab something they can 
   see, but they're trying to do it by running through concrete.
   Rather than stepping back and..."


You want the impossible? The 
unattainable?
  "Contentment."
  Do you get all these moods and 
thoughts across in New Order's
music?
  "In the music?"
  Well, the whole thing. Do 
you express everything you want 
to?
  "Yes, cos - I wouldn't want 
to express say all the violence, 
cos music's the one place where 
it doesn't exist, and from where 
it can be completely 
obliterated.
  "I see good music as the only 
spiritual thing that's left in 
the world. Not in a religious 
way; I mean - you can touch 
something that you can't see, 
you've got a hunch that 
something's there, and with 
   music you can get closer to it. Or even touch it.
     "What we're trying to do is like sex really. But I think music's 
   a better medium."
     Why? Cos you can generally get more people involved at once?
     "Or... show them something. Music can take you to that 
   abstract place. In your imagination, in your mind."
     Has pop music taken over from art and books?
     "Well it has with me! I try and try but I can't read books 
   anymore. I suppose it's because I immediately understand music."
     How long do you see New Order going on?
     "'Till we get pissed off. And probably if we became accomplished.
   When we lose faith in our music. And when we stop having fun. Cos
   it's a great laugh. I mean, I couldn't get pissed in a can factory
   but I can get pissed on stage."
     What else could you do if you had to?
     "I think about these things, then I forget them. I forget the
   conclusion. I think I wouldn't mind being a thief. You don't have
   a boss, and it's a challenge, innit? It's got a lot of the 
   elements this has."
     Is it abstract though?
     "Er... no, but you've got a balance." 
     VII) Do you feel guilty about things? And if so, why?
     "Life forces you to be bad when really you just want to be good.
   Everybody's forced - it's a question... why do I end up like this?
   And everyone else?"   
     I think... hmmph. I think: futility ha ha ha.
     "Yeah, I do feel futile about a lot of things."
     So what can the average human being do to combat this?
     "Well... art. You say art, I say music. Y'know, anything... one 
   way. Or escape. That's not a very good answer really. But... if 
   you go back to the time of Christ, or prehistoric times, there's 
   people going out eating each other. So... the future's the answer.
   But meanwhile you find an escape, and I like... creating." 
     Is that a realistic optimism?
     "I've got little interest in politicians."
     That's exactly what I was getting at.
     "It takes so long for anything to change. It turns sour, they've
   all just got their own interests at heart. It's a very corrupt 
   area. Even mass movements only change one little bit. Politics
   anyway is... a bit boring."
     Yes! There's no glamour or drama or style, is there?
     "No, it's just like - men in grey suits. All business. Those men
   can't change the world if they can't change people's emotions."
     Are New Order one big happy family?
     "We're going through a lot of pressure and tension at the moment
   but compared to other groups I've worked with in studios, we get 
   on very well. We all have a certain target. Can we go and get a
   drink now?"
     Definitely.
     "Sometimes I think a lot and sometimes I don't think at all.
   Sometimes I don't speak and sometimes I speak quite a lot."


   "It's never enough" (Shellshock)


   I FORGET THE CONCLUSION


   On The Tube New Order (nearly enough to make you proud to be 
   British) play two awesome songs. One is called either 'State Of 
   The Nation' or 'Shame Of The Nation', and was written in Japan. 
   The other is called 'Broken Promises' or 'Broken Guitar Strings'
   or 'Bizarre Love Triangle'.
     Both uncannily purvey that grainy single-minded surge that
   separates this group's music from everybody else's. 
     Oh, there's supposed to be a new album around May but they have 
   to write it first. They tell me they will probably write it a week 
   on Monday.
     Bernard and I are sitting by the sink in the dressing-room now.
     So you're all going back to The Hacienda later?
     "Yeah."
     What will you do there?
     "Get blind drunk."
     Why?
     "Cos my life's so f***in' awful."
     So will you dance? Y'know, boogie?
     "Nah."
     Why not?
     "Cos everyone takes the piss."
     The prophet leaves the room, but soon returns smiling with
   resignation. 
     Deep as you like, mountain high. A flash through old chaos.
     I forget the conclusion.                           




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